[OpenTRV-interest] [OpenTRV-dev] Storage heating, dynamic demand, and OpenTRV
John Stumbles
EMAIL ADDRESS HIDDEN
Mon Sep 8 11:25:25 BST 2014
On 08/09/14 11:06, Bo Herrmannsen wrote:
> it was an electric storage heater i had in mind.... cylinder with water
> in it and and some point an electric heating element
If you really did want to commit the thermodynamic crime* of burning
high quality electric energy to produce low grade heat energy and you
have a wet central heating system then a heat bank or thermal store
would be the sensible way to go. DIY-able with old HW cylinder, plate
heat exchanger & CH circulator pump.
Here's a starting point to show the general principles, though this is
for DHW http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=DIY_Heat_Bank.
Probably most fruitful given availability of PV in warmer seasons when
you don't need the CH would be to pre-heat water for the combi using
PV-generated heat stored in the thermal store. You'd need the DHW + pump
to allow you to use a cheap vented cylinder on a pressurised sealed
primary heating system; alternatively could use an unvented cylinder
directly but building regs cover installation of unvented so you'd need
a qualified installer to do it to be legal.
* (c) David MacKay, although he was talking of burning gas for heat
>
> at buttom 2 pipe connections... water in and out...
>
> 2014-09-08 12:00 GMT+02:00 Damon Hart-Davis <EMAIL ADDRESS HIDDEN
> <mailto:EMAIL ADDRESS HIDDEN>>:
>
> Hi,
>
> The key thing I’m aiming for here is short-term controllability to
> balance second-by-second flows in/out of the house, plus storage to
> carry that energy to a more useful time.
>
> Thus an electric storage heater rather than a normal one.
>
> Your DHW idea is in principle fine if done right, but storage in
> water isn’t plausible for everyone.
>
> Anyhow, only a thought experiment, so good to thrash it out!
>
> Rgds
>
> Damon
>
>
> On 8 Sep 2014, at 10:57, Bo Herrmannsen <EMAIL ADDRESS HIDDEN
> <mailto:EMAIL ADDRESS HIDDEN>> wrote:
>
> > my thought of a tank with electric heater is simply just that i
> did not know any other hardware that could do the job
> >
> > maybe there are a electric heater you just plumb in?
> >
> > 2014-09-08 11:43 GMT+02:00 Damon Hart-Davis <EMAIL ADDRESS HIDDEN
> <mailto:EMAIL ADDRESS HIDDEN>>:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Sorry, not sure if I missed this one or not.
> >
> > My thought experiment is for situations such as mine with solar
> PV and ‘instant’ DHW (no tank, and no solar thermal), which I sure
> is not unique!
> >
> > Thanks for everyone’s feedback: very helpful!
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> > Damon
> >
> >
> > On 7 Sep 2014, at 15:57, Bo Herrmannsen <EMAIL ADDRESS HIDDEN
> <mailto:EMAIL ADDRESS HIDDEN>> wrote:
> >
> > > hmmm
> > >
> > > just on top of my head.... an well insulated hot water cylinder
> with an electric heating element in series with the rad loop..? then
> both the gas heater and the electric can heat up the water at the
> same time...
> > >
> > > of course you have to wire in the electric heating element so
> the system will not boil...
> > >
> > >
> > > in denmark the cylinder normally hold 100 liters of water, not
> sure if there are space enough in an UK home for that... but if you
> can get them in 50 liters you could pick 2 of them and place them
> where there is space
> > >
> > >
> > > but will the gas heater make hot drinking water from that same
> loop? if not my idea is not worth much....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2014-09-07 13:00 GMT+02:00 Damon Hart-Davis <EMAIL ADDRESS HIDDEN
> <mailto:EMAIL ADDRESS HIDDEN>>:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I have a thought in the back of my mind about carefully making
> some use of residual exported solar PV generation in winter with
> highly-efficient storage heaters controllable by an extension of
> OpenTRV to supplement a gas-fired system. This would also help with
> grid balancing.
> > >
> > > (Yes, I am allergic to electric resistance heating in most
> circumstances, but if done carefully this might be virtuous.)
> > >
> > > Does anyone know of off-the-shelf UK storage heaters that have
> electronically-controllable fans/vents and that can retain the bulk
> of their heat for much more than a day, preferably a week.
> > >
> > > Rgds
> > >
> > > Damon
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > |||||
> > > @(~Ô^Ô~)@
> > > -------------oOo---U---oOo-------------
> > > | |
> > > | Bo Herrmannsen |
> > > | |
> > > | |
> > > | "blessed are the "cracked", |
> > > | for its they who let in the light" |
> > > | Ooo |
> > > |_________________ooO____( )________|
> > > ( ) ) /
> > > \ ( (_/
> > > \_)
> > >
> > >
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> > --
> > |||||
> > @(~Ô^Ô~)@
> > -------------oOo---U---oOo-------------
> > | |
> > | Bo Herrmannsen |
> > | |
> > | |
> > | "blessed are the "cracked", |
> > | for its they who let in the light" |
> > | Ooo |
> > |_________________ooO____( )________|
> > ( ) ) /
> > \ ( (_/
> > \_)
> >
> >
> >
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> --
>
> |||||
> @(~Ô^Ô~)@
> -------------oOo---U---oOo-------------
> | |
> | Bo Herrmannsen |
> | |
> | |
> | "blessed are the "cracked", |
> | for its they who let in the light" |
> | Ooo |
> |_________________ooO____( )________|
> ( ) ) /
> \ ( (_/
> \_)
>
>
>
>
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--
John Stumbles http://stumbles.org.uk
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