[OpenTRV-interest] Adaptive comfort

Lisa Ann Pasquale lisa.pasquale at six-cylinder.co.uk
Wed Jul 13 13:06:21 BST 2016


Subject to costs, I'd be well keen, Damon...

On 13 July 2016 at 12:58, graham pitt <gpitt41 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'd definitely be interested in buying some opentrv kit. What is the
> likely cost per unit going to be?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Graham
>
>
> On Wednesday, 13 July 2016, Damon Hart-Davis <dhd at exnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> This may be the moment to whisper quietly that we are working up to a
>> small reward/product crowdfunding campaign in the autumn to be able to put
>> kit into consumer hands.
>>
>> Lots of detail to be sorted yet, but if people would indicate here (or to
>> Victor [victor at opentrv dot uk] directly) if they’d like to be notified
>> in the run-up to the campaign, that would be handy.
>>
>> Rgds
>>
>> Damon
>>
>>
>> > On 13 Jul 2016, at 12:37, Lisa Ann Pasquale <
>> lisa.pasquale at six-cylinder.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > I'm developing a heating controller from a RasberryPi, which I expect
>> to cost ~£150, including sensors, and most hardware (using off-the-shelf
>> components). I was hoping to use Open-TRV for zone control, which is why
>> I'm on this forum.
>> >
>> > As mentioned, though, I wouldn't link the RH sensor to the heating. The
>> RH would link it to the ventilation (MEV, in my case) through humidistats,
>> which is a separate system to the TRVs and heating. Whilst linked to
>> thermal comfort, it's far more efficient and effective to control
>> ventilation off RH data, not heating.
>> >
>> > Lisa
>> >
>> > On 13 July 2016 at 12:28, Chris Skerry <chris_skerry at icloud.com> wrote:
>> > So between us we have invented a new system. . . . . .
>> >
>> > 1.  Everything WiFi linked to the cloud
>> > 2.  One central TRV that measures humidity as well as temperature.
>> > 3.  A sophisticated control system in the cloud.
>> > 4.  A simple App that sends and receives from the cloud’s control
>> programme.
>> >
>> > The controller would learn the characteristic of the house, the outside
>> conditions (temperature, wind & humidity) from the internet, and the
>> people’s demands for heat or less heat, and their time schedules.
>> >
>> > It would be constantly adjust to the minimum energy consumption related
>> to the number of user tweaks up or down.
>> >
>> > Eventually the control program would have learned every thing it needs
>> to know.  But, if the user is someone who is constantly wanting more or
>> less, he/she can have it with say +2 degrees or -2 degrees for 2 hours.
>> >
>> > So it would not matter about the users lack of knowledge.  The system
>> would adapt to user demands.  I have a relative who keeps her house at 23
>> degrees during the winter daytime, much too hot for me.  Others will wear
>> thick jumpers and accept 18 degrees or less.
>> >
>> > I would expect it to be half the price of the Evohome system.
>> >
>> > So when will we get it?  Who will design and build it?
>> >
>> > Regards,…………..Chris.
>> > .
>> > > On 13 Jul 2016, at 11:19, Simon Hobson <linux at thehobsons.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Lisa Ann Pasquale <lisa.pasquale at six-cylinder.co.uk> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Humidity is a metric which is more relevant for controlling
>> ventilation than heating.
>> > >
>> > > It still has relevance to maintaining "comfort".
>> > >
>> > >> When the humidity rises, you need to ventilate to remove the
>> moisture. Increasing the temperature only disperses it and adjusts the
>> dewpoint - it doesn't remove the moisture, which is a risk of condensation
>> and mould problems within the home - regardless of comfort. Tweaking the
>> temperature is unlikely to alleviate discomfort caused by high or low
>> humidity levels as efficiently or effectively as ventilation.
>> > >
>> > > Mostly true. But humidity does have a part to play in perceived
>> comfort - or at least perceived "is the temperature OK". From my own
>> observations ...
>> > > As a very crude generalisation, high humidity gives a perception of
>> higher temperature, and low humidity gives a perception of low temperature
>> - with a fairly wide band of humidity in the middle where the effect is
>> minimal. It's very non-linear.
>> > > Thus someone (but not me !) may feel quite comfortable with
>> temperatures in the high 20s when humidity is low, but feel "stiflingly
>> hot" in the mid 20s with high humidity. I suspect some of that isn't so
>> much whether our body is too hot or not, but the discomfort of feeling
>> "clammy" from the sweat that isn't evaporating quickly when the humidity is
>> high.
>> > >
>> > > Of course, air movement affects this. If the air is moving, it clears
>> away that boundary layer of moist air and allows more sweat to evaporate -
>> hence a fan making us feel cooler even though it might have zero effect on
>> actual temperature.
>> > >
>> > > Quite complicated ! And probably far more complicated than is
>> justified - or even productive.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Damon Hart-Davis <dhd at exnet.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Note that the rather nice humidity and temperature sensor that we
>> use (SHT21) is more expensive than and larger than and has tougher power
>> supply requirements the temperature-only device that we otherwise use
>> (TMP112).  There is a significant cost implication of using RH (maybe even
>> a fiver at retail) so it needs to pay its way.
>> > >
>> > > Which is a very important point. Unless the devices are wired to a
>> power supply, more power == shorter battery life == more cost and
>> inconvenience for the end user. Any benefit needs to be enough to outweigh
>> that cost - and personally I very much doubt that it would in most cases.
>> > > Bear in mind that a very large proportion of people (again, from
>> observation) don't grasp the concept of a thermostat. And at the risk of
>> coming across as sexist, my observation is that women are the worst
>> offenders in this. My observations come from having responsibility for
>> office heating and cooling for some years at my last job - and the constant
>> resetting of controls on AC systems.
>> > > The cycle would typically go like this ...
>> > > I'd reset the system, on it's timer, with a "reasonable" setpoint -
>> and explain how the setpoint can be turned up or down by a degree or two.
>> Bear in mind that some of these users would come to work in midwinter
>> wearing a light summer outfit and be most offended at the suggestion that
>> if they know they are likely to be cold at work, they may wish to reassess
>> what they wear ! This brings up another factor in perceived comfort - if
>> they are coming into the office cold from the commute, then they need the
>> office a bit warmer than if they arrive warm.
>> > > So first thing in the morning, someone would turn the controls up to
>> max (30˚C) rather than just turning it up a degree or two. Needless to say,
>> with a 14kW AC unit blasting away in a not too big office, it's soon "quite
>> warm" and the unit just gets turned off.
>> > > Then in the afternoon, things are still getting warmer - so the AC
>> gets turned on and turned down to min (18˚C). 14kW of cooling soon gets
>> things chilled down, so it gets turned off again.
>> > > Then next morning, the heating hasn't been on - and somehow it's *MY*
>> fault that the office is cold :-/
>> > >
>> > > So once again I reset the system, and explain YET AGAIN that this
>> thing has temperature control and the trick is to just nudge it up or down
>> a degree or two as needed. That might work for a day or two, then the cycle
>> repeats, and once again it's MY fault that they can't use the system.
>> > >
>> > > Eventually, as the offices were expanded, we went with hidden units,
>> with networked controls (which I had modified to work around some of the
>> control issues) so there was nothing for users to fiddle with. I'd still
>> get the occasional "can you turn it up/down a bit ?" requests, but once
>> they weren't able to fiddle with the controls, most users learned to live
>> with it.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > So when designing a system, the sort of people discussing it here on
>> this list aren't the ones you need to think about. There's that joke about
>> it being hard to make things foolproof because fools are so ingenious - but
>> there's a grain of truth in that. As above, the majority of people who
>> these things are aimed at will be the type that struggle with the concept
>> of "if you are a little cool then turn the heat up a little", the sort of
>> person where the wall thermostat is either on max or min and is used as a
>> switch (ie the heating is either "on" or "off").
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > OpenTRV-interest mailing list
>> > > OpenTRV-interest at lists.opentrv.org.uk
>> > > http://lists.opentrv.org.uk/listinfo/opentrv-interest
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Lisa Ann Pasquale  BArch MSc CEng MCIBSE
>> > Director | CoRE Retrofit Coordinator | CoRE Fellow
>> >
>> > *UK Green Building Council Rising Star 2016*
>> >
>> > +44 7896 051 660
>> > http://six-cylinder.co.uk
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We're like crash-test engineers, but for low-energy buildings...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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-- 
*Lisa Ann Pasquale  *BArch MSc CEng MCIBSE
Director | CoRE Retrofit Coordinator | CoRE Fellow

**UK Green Building Council Rising Star 2016**

+44 7896 051 660
http://six-cylinder.co.uk
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addressed, and may not be forwarded without consent of the sender. If you
have received this e-mail in error, any distribution, disclosure, copying,
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e-mails have been swept for viruses, we do not accept any liability as a
result of the transmission or interception of this e-mail and advise you
carry out your own virus checks.

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